Interview with Brazil's Foreign Minister Celso Amorim
Celso Amorim
NEW DELHI, Aug 3 (IPS) - Brazil's Foreign Minister Celso Amorim, who also heads his country's delegation in multilateral trade negotiations, believes cooperation among developing countries can change the way people perceive the world.
It can make developed countries listen to the voices of the rest of the world and, in the process, become more responsive to the aspirations of developing and least-developed nations.
IPS correspondent Paranjoy Guha Thakurta spoke to Amorim about Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva's dream of South-South cooperation and the India-Brazil-South Africa (IBSA) initiative. Excerpts of the interview follow.
IPS: President Lula has spoken about the need to change the world's commercial geography. Do you believe IBSA has the potential to achieve such an ambitious goal?
Celso Amorim (CA): I will go a step forward and say that cooperation among developing countries has the potential to change not just the commercial geography, but the entire geography of the planet. In this context, IBSA can play an important role because we represent three large democracies in three continents.
Our positions are similar on a wide variety of issues such as climate change, the importance of human rights, disarmament, the need to reform the United Nations in general and the UN Security Council in particular and the need for developed countries, especially the U.S., to reduce agricultural subsidies to take forward the Doha Round of negotiations in the WTO (World Trade Organisation).
IPS: Can IBSA serve as a voice representing the entire developing world without China being a part of it?
CA: This is not a fixed grouping. All three countries are engaging with China at different levels. For instance, China, Brazil, India and Mexico are in the outreach group talking to the G8 (Group of Eight leading industrialised countries). The term BRICs has become very popular these days as an acronym for Brazil, Russia, India and China -- four of the world's most populous and fast-growing countries. Representatives of the BRICs countries met informally at the UN General Assembly last year, a meeting that was organised with the help of Russia.
IPS: What has IBSA been able to achieve?
CA: The (Jul. 17) joint communiqué issued after the (New Delhi) meeting of foreign ministers has some 100 points relating to trilateral issues. An important dimension of the relationship is the development of more and more joint projects in areas like health, transportation, agriculture and science and technology. These are being developed with the participation of the parliaments of all three countries and also with civil society. But we don't stop here. We are concerned about helping countries that are less developed than we are. We have ongoing projects in Haiti, Guinea-Bissau, Zambia, Burundi and East Timor. A four-billion-U.S.-dollar fund has been created and this fund is expected to grow by one billion dollars a year.
The three IBSA countries are also closely cooperating with one another in international fora like the WTO and the UN. We are members of the G20 in the WTO. In the future, we could as a combination intervene in issues and in regions where we have influence -- in Africa, in the Middle East... even on the Palestine issue. It is difficult to predict what could happen. The world is today very different from what it was even 50 years ago.
We were clear after the G8 outreach meeting (Jun. 8) at Heiligendamm (Germany) that we cannot be taken for granted by the rich nations. It is no point asking us to come and taste the dessert after the main meal is over. As Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said, there is no use asking us to discuss a document after it has been prepared and not during its preparation. I don't question the intentions of the G8 in calling us. I just think some of these countries have not yet been able to get rid of their bad habits.
IPS: One of the biggest constraints hampering trade among the IBSA countries is the high cost of transportation. Consignments from India and Brazil to South Africa first travel to Europe before reaching their destination. Because of low traffic, it is less expensive to fly from India to the U.S. than to Brazil, although Brazil is closer.
CA: Yes, this is a problem but we have to move forward. While there are agreements at a government level, we wish to convene meetings of businesspersons to look into issues related to aviation and maritime agreements, including trans-shipment issues, so that goods do not have to move through other countries. The natural sea route from Brazil to India is through South Africa.
IPS: IBSA nations also compete in international markets. How do competitors become collaborators?
CA: The areas of collaboration and complementarity are far bigger than the areas of competition. There is tremendous potential for collaboration, in areas such as computer software, pharmaceuticals and aviation. Even in areas like textiles, garments and farm commodities where we compete with one another, I believe there is scope for cooperation.
Take the case of biofuels. India and South Africa can benefit from Brazil's experience not only with ethanol but also with biodiesel. I believe promotion of biofuels would help create employment opportunities in rural areas. I don't agree with Fidel Castro that there are conflicts of interest between farmers growing cash crops and subsistence crops. This is a false controversy. Farmers have a choice of planting black beans, rice or sugarcane. The main problem is not lack of food but lack of income and appropriate land. Without money, you will not be able to eat.
IPS: How do you react to the view that India, Brazil and South Africa should not be pressing the U.S. to reduce farm subsidies because all three countries import food and consumers can benefit from subsidised food?
CA: Agricultural subsidies in the U.S. cause much more harm than good. The subsidies that are given to farmers producing cotton and sugar in rich countries benefit only a few and threaten the livelihood of many. We in IBSA and other developing countries are united in demanding that developed countries completely eliminate trade-distorting export subsidies on agricultural products and substantially reduce other agricultural subsidies. This cannot become a precondition to NAMA (non-agricultural market access) from developing countries. We want the developed countries to remember the Hong Kong declaration (of the WTO) that there should be no less than full reciprocity on this issue.
IPS: There is a complete breakdown of talks at the WTO on the issue of farm subsidies. Do you not think that the so-called Doha Development Round is dead and gone?
CA: No, I don't think so. I have hope that the Doha Round would be successfully concluded. In the area of TRIPS (Trade Related Intellectual Property Rights), at (the 2003 WTO meeting at) Cancún (Mexico), the U.S. and the developed countries in Europe accepted changes related to trade in pharmaceuticals. That was a good omen. The WTO, after all, is the only multilateral trade body that allows for settlement of disputes among countries and believes in a rule-based international trading system.
IPS: Now that India and the U.S. are coming closer together on nuclear energy, what kind of cooperation is possible in this area between India and Brazil?
CA: We have to be very careful with regard to proper and dependable safeguards. If there is an effective safeguards agreement, there should be no problem. We should start with the relatively softer areas, for example, nuclear medicine and the use of isotopes for food preservation. The joint communiqué states that Brazil and South Africa, as members of the Nuclear Suppliers Group, have resolved to explore ways for civilian nuclear cooperation with India through acceptable approaches. (END/2007)
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